My Interview with John Waters: The destruction of the written word.

My Interview with John Waters: The destruction of the written word.

Okay I think we’re live and welcome Everybody this is uh Jerry O’Neill from The West awake and this is another in Our series of um video interviews with People But I’m kind of putting Under the Umbrella of the scholar gypsies is what I’m calling it on my um On my sub stack and it’s out of the box Tankers really is what I’m interested in Getting on here as many of you’ll know Most of my readers know today’s guest John Waters he’s a background on hot Press in Dublin McGill magazine all the Mainstream papers gone back to Sunday Tribune over 20 years with the times and The Irish independent after that and Then I as we all probably know that are Watching this has More or less been cast aside I think Another interesting detail about John is He was actually on the broadcasting Authority of Ireland At one stage which you could argue was The man you know the group that were Responsible for misinformation if you Like are kind of uh what’s what’s Suitable what’s not Um no longer has room at the end for one Of the the members of the board so I Think that’s something we might have a Look at at some stage but first Um I just introduced the question and The first question I have John is

Um When did you understand that you had a Talent for expense expressing yourself Through the written word Actually uh Terry there was a there was An actual day and uh an hour and a Minute almost you know uh I was in School I was in about I think fifth Class in school and I hadn’t really gone To school until I was about 10 you know I’d been I had bronchitis and I I was at Home more far more than I was in school I went for the odd day you know I Remember at one point Well I think it was about four Target Four class the with a very sarcastic Snarky brother I went to the Mars Brothers they were kind of like Essentially the guys who couldn’t get Into Christian Brothers you know uh and Uh this guy was very nasty kind of Character and he but he he said he Congratulated me at Christmas just Before Christmas holiday he says you’ve Broken all your previous records he says You’ve managed to go to school to 20 Days since the summer he says it’s a Tremendous achievement so I said thank You very much so but but when I was in Fifth class I was never as a result of that I think I I had no interest in sport really I Played soccer later on I was okay I have A job but never really moved into the

Kind of uh at the Rough and Tumble of The Sea of the the real the real deal uh Police player on the back roads and all That kind of stuff Uh but I and I didn’t really have Anything you know I couldn’t claim I I Tried playing guitar later and I could Never really get my fingers around the Neck of it you know and and I played the Ukulele as well you know which is the Same thing really except different Chords uh uh the same shapes make Different chords uh and you know but I’ve never really was a natural musician But I remember the day This is where this was kind of brother Who is kind of semi-psychotic in lots of Ways but he was also a really good Teacher which is something you don’t Hear about you know that some somebody Who is hugely inspirational if I’ve Still been a cycle and and uh I won’t go Into the psycho part of it now but like Just the quality of caring about you in That sense which was rare in my Experience of teachers I remember this Particular day we were all doing our Essays normally these essays were all Pro former things we just kind of did Them Uh you know and handed them in and you Got me back what kind of marks or Whatever and he said today I’m going to Do something different he says I want

You to take five minutes To perfect what you think is your best Sentence in your in your composition And uh I want everybody to read out Their sentences so I I thought okay you Know okay and I started looking around And I found this sentence and I don’t Remember what it was but I had a bird in It and it was like you know it was kind Of a rustic situation or something I Might have the phrase in it to the naked Eye that’s all I remember But I doctored it up and put it in a few Different words and changed yeah yeah You know and I read it out and he that Day that brother kind of like he’d spoke To me like as if it was Shakespeare you Know he said you know like he said this Is incredible and from that day on Whenever I wrote an essay he always said Oh let’s see what Waters has to say here And and that really drove me to kind of Do better and better and better and That’s how I started literally so that’s The only way I kind of thought oh I can Do this this is something I can do and Uh and I think that’s what that would Have come from reading books when I was A child I mean I didn’t go to school but I was at home and you know my father had The house full of books and things and And uh he just connected them like he Went to auctions and bought loads and Loads of books like he never time to

Read them but I read them some of them You know and all that yeah so that kind Of came from that so that was that was How it happened and uh you know I I I And that stood with me right to my even Though I I had a very bad education as a Result of informal terms I I hated School every minute I’m amazed you know I have step grandchildren and they love School you know and I I’m always lagging Them like did you say you’re crazy They can’t wait for it for the summer Holidays to be over they want to rush Back to school I said God you guys you See me locked up you know uh this is Like so I I I never really did well In schools Do you think that gives you know that Kind of um stop-start education because Of maybe illness or anything it stopped The place in a Str box structure on your Thinking Oh absolutely right I I did I do think That I’ve taught that for a long time Didn’t think about the time but uh and Certainly my parents and my mother used To be frantic with me because I’d never Go to school you know because I’d always Like try doing a lot of games any any of Any boat of of cold or coffin that I had I couldn’t really fake coughing really Well you know by the time was 10 or 12 You know and then I would go from that To kind of pain to my stomach I could

Actually will myself a pain in the swamp So I wouldn’t have to lie I didn’t want To lie to my mother so I would lie in Bed the more and I would conjure up in My stomach Psychosomatic pain right I don’t know Tell her I had it you know and uh and Then when I would exhaust all these I Remember one day when I at the end I saw I gone through the flu I’ve gone through Bronchitis and I’ve gone through you Know asthma had gone through pain my Stomach and all that and and I ran out Of ideas you know and she said you’re Going to school today and I went out With my sister and I was walking down The street behind my sister I knew my Father was due back from his runs Car and come back around 10 past quarter Past nine and let’s slow down the one up The street and when I saw him coming Down the post office Hill I would start Watching the footpath in front of me and I saw a Paving Stone sticking up And I actually tripped across it Deliberately and I tore the two knees Out of myself and that was another three Weeks or a month you know and that’s That was my sole objective in life was To not go to school and and I do think I Do think that now I think that saved me An awful lot and I actually you know People worry now about kids in this Context in all kinds of ways you know

I’m not getting a proper education Because of the propaganda and all the Rest of it and what if you know I say Well take the vote teach them yourself Just take the palette anybody can do it Up to a certain level certainty up to a Second yeah and and and they’re kind of Worried about that and I said no it’s Going to be much better it’s going to be Much better yeah and they’re and they’re Going to have the benefit that they’re Not going to be propagandized so I I Totally agree with that and of course It’s much worse now I think I think it’s Worse than we didn’t even know it was There of course so we can’t really say Definitively you know what’s how much Worse it is now because we’re kind of Just kind of getting our heads around The idea that almost everything that Happened to us was in some way Manipulative Uh and uh and that’s until very recently We didn’t really know I mean some people Did know I mean you know but I’m not one Of them I can’t say I am I I’m not one Of them either Uh like I did I did actually happen to Be over the target quite a bit in the Irish times for example 20 25 years ago But that was kind of a happenstance it Was it wasn’t that I kind of was Following Clues it was because my life Threw me into the middle of some stuff

That I had to actually pay attention The corruption and stuff but it was not A list I don’t think I really began to Understand how terrible things were Until the covert episode uh was about Two weeks old Because the first two weeks I didn’t get It then either you know yeah no but I Yeah no I believe it there’s two areas There’s two things there where you that I want you to bring into you and kind of Tying in because I I said Terraria I Watched your interview with Thomas shirt And it was fascinating on transhumanism And I uh my own feeling on that you know In terms of awareness Um it’s almost like the circles of Awareness of people that are kind of you Know waking up to things and Transhumanism is at the very we’ll say It’s the one of the outer kind of Circles that you know people people just Come and waking up at the moment are are Kind of afraid to look at but it’s Something I’m very interested in myself But one of the things I wanted to ask is Because you’re a very well I’ve noticed About your writing is it’s very you know It’s a long form there’s you know I’m I want to find out if you notice the Kind of destruction of reading ability In the last four or five years in the Digital age in terms of people’s Attention span to concentrate on

Anything that’s over two thousand three Thousand words because I know like I Write Between Two and a half and three and a half Thousand and Words normally and uh sometimes get my Teeth into and I have this sense that People’s part of what’s happening with This transhumanism thing is that we’re Almost in a Metamorphosis stage where an awful lot Of people are actually on you know 20 Machine because they’re they’re their Imaginations are their ability to Process information is is being subtly Changed all the time I just wanted to Yeah yeah oh I think that’s 100 right Sure yeah but I think it goes back a lot Longer and then in the last few years Um like I come from a long-form Tradition really yeah from hot press I Mean we always write five or 500 5000 Word art interviews you know and I like I used to like to record them and Transcribe every single word by by hand And every omala in order to get the Nuance of the character and all the rest Of it and try to replicate as much as Effectively as possible the way they Spoke and you know while still making Sense and uh and and that was a very Long process I mean I I wasn’t in any Way like I just didn’t kind of didn’t

Just happen to for me you know I I had To work really hard at it in the Beginning I I I spent a lot of time doing stuff That I there was no way any payment I Got for it and it was very little like Even on the face of it wouldn’t and Remotely pay me for the work I was doing But I wanted to do it because I want to Get it right and yeah and and then it Got easier you know and and so on Although I still when I do an interview I’m still cursed by that I still write Every single word out like which is a Terrible drudgery but yeah But but I do I do come from that and I Went into in Dublin magazine which was So much shorter spaces because there are Smaller pages and that limits and things A bit and then Miguel which was long Form really you know you could yeah yeah So that’s where I come from and and I Remember back then in 1988 I was editor Of Miguel then And the the kind of the bubble not burst Really I mean Miguel had been a hugely Successful phenomenon under Vincent Brown and he had condominance he Actually succeeded him and and then There were others and I came in then and And really the thing had fallen apart For all kinds of reasons and one that Was what you’ve talked about for certain Uh the the diminishing his tension span

Because you know you know at that point Miguel was somewhere between a newspaper And a book yeah yeah yeah you know you Got it every month and you put it on the Bedside locker and it would be like six Seven thousand were an article by Somebody you know yeah Gene Carrigan Deconstructing some crime based on a Book of evidence and other stuff you Know and and it was really brilliant Stuff you know and and uh so uh but I Remember that time things were beginning To kind of nosedive and and uh one of The reasons was that advertising was to Mention because the newspapers were Taking up the the holiday brought in Tolerance and newspapers and they were Taking a lot of our ads and that was Meant that meant that there were more Pages than for for articles which meant Which really drained away your budgets You see so it was kind of a a a a kind Of a downward spiral really fast so we This guy who was a uh he was the Advertisement at the time said why don’t We just go around the advertising Agencies and talk to them about what’s Going on and generally and they don’t What we what we found when we talked to Them they’ve done all this research Already about attention spans and they Were telling us no no detention span is Going it’s diminishing So and

And certainly that appeared to be the Case now I’ve been a stubborn and So-and-so I refuse to accept that I Refuse to go with that and I started When I got it went on I mean when I was In the Irish Times I I uh Mike hollom When I started in 91 It was across the top of the page And in theoretically it had no the lower Limits you know Could actually extend I actually became Interested in how far down the page I Could approach this column and because You know the average columnist was there Were 1200 Wars people were writing being Like Mary Holland and and so on and Dick Watch as well 1200 words and I said well I go for 15. and I got away with 50 and Then I would go to about 18 and like I Got I got up to about two and a half Thousand actually before people started Walking you know [Laughter] And that meant Jerry that you could Actually write an essay yeah yeah yeah Yeah in a space that was designed for Something rather different yes it was The same it that space 1200 was designed For a single point you know you’re Talking about goodbye and ours but I was Able to synthesize two or three Different points into one essay And that went on then but then they they For quite a while about a year a couple

Years anyway and I did I mean I haven’t Looked back over but I published a lot Of them in a book I wrote it I published In uh 1995 called every day like Sunday So they’re there a lot of them but then I I then they’ve moved the column down To the left hand side and initially it Had two two narrow columns so that was Still about 1200 words But then gradually they changed the Format into a single column thicker than The other two but but nevertheless less Space and then graduate when in the end Mike Holloman there is times was 840 Words And if you wrote 841 they take out one And it would be the most it will be the Most vital word in the whole thing right Yeah like they were absolute Savages Like the Irish Times uh because as this Reputation as being you know this Elevated intellectual platform but Mostly administered people are can’t Write they can’t think never caught and And they don’t care and they hate people Who can’t they hate the writers What you’re writing you know so you have To actually write everything to make Sure that they couldn’t do anything to It yeah so so uh and and that was Because and you just think of it so I Was done for two and a half thousand to 840 like that’s a third that means your Sentences is gone your essay is gone

You’re back to one point yeah and and I remember actually one time when Vincent Brown joined the Irish Times I Met him one day and we were having a Coffee or someone and then he was uh Complaining about how hard it was the Right columns you know and I said what Was hard about it and he said well He said well you know it’s just like you You cannot it’s easy the first 500 words To your right you know you’ve said what You want to say he says you can’t listen And I said I have the directly opposite Problem I I write I write 4 000 words And I have to figure out how to get it Down to 840. like and and that and I Would literally do that Jerry I would Spend like an hour and a half writing Four thousand words and then I would Spend two days putting it back to 840 Words and it would be indecipherable to Me and it would you know very often I Would be I would be crying At what what I had to do to it that was Very frustrating and it’s very Interesting in my sub stack there they Were a couple years ago last year I Started in 2020 so last year probably I Started you know I finally I had all These old computers with stuff and I Found ways of getting some of the Material off them you know so I decided It would do kind of a series of in my Sub stack of you know Blast from the

Past you know yeah yeah I did it for a While and but actually a while I Realized that I was I was not satisfied Yeah they were there were good things I Wrote here and there But everything I wrote virtually Disappointed me in and precisely for That reason that it was so narrow and so So now so so that I couldn’t really Expand myself so I I kind of now in Substance right I’m strained I’m still Your pointerest I’m coming back to her So I come I I I do I do write in the Very beginning people were mourned and Grown and telling me the articles are Too long you know and uh no I said no no You’re praying I say you know your brain Is too small that’s the problem Get a bigger brain or whatever so you Know so uh uh You know I like this is the thing that I Found defined astonishing it goes along With what you’ve been talking about You’re touching on there that it never Occurred to me whenever I when people Say oh you’re really too many long words Or too many long paragraphs or too many Long you know and and I I I I said when I was a kid Raiden my father’s books under the Blankets with a torch uh you know and I Come across something I didn’t Understand what would happen well I’d Say I don’t understand that

Um I’ll park it And I read on and then I go back and see Yeah in the context there now do I Understand it better do I have an Inkling and I did and and what there’s a Very interesting kind of concept that Came out with that I call it alphabetism Or alphabetism which is a and I I I Found we should almost have a Recovery Group it’s people who read so many books And their kids that they came across Countless Wars that they didn’t Pronounce correctly at the time and Carries those mispronunciations with Them through their lives right and it’s The most embarrassing thing when you do That you know uh but it happens an awful Lot of people that yeah I know I know I Mean when I say it I call it alphabetism For a complicated reason but I remember An example would be I remember once Actually I’m not named after but I was Actually out one day with Dermot Morgan The late great comedian the father’s Head guy and I knew him very well and Where he was driving around his car Somewhere and I actually remember Uh using the word Automaton right but I said automation Which is the way I had always pronounced It yeah And I said I used to I used to automate On and German Morgan almost crashed the Character

Like because it was such a revelation to Him that such a word that was familiar To him that I didn’t know it you know What I mean so anyway so here’s the Thing about the the the attention span Unquestionably that has been going on They’ve been working away on us they Like the reason they did that in the Irish Times was to do what the attention Span there were not as long were they And it was nothing we were trying to Catch up on a diminishing uh uh Attention span they were actually Proactively helping to generate it With the tech age if you move into that The amount of long-form writing that is Now being consumed hourly through the Years as opposed Through The Eyes Um like somebody sent me about two years Into writing when I started writing Somebody sent me something oh you should Um do an audiobook this is what you mean Do not even well she can just um The rate at which Um the Amazon whatever Amazon audible Um the consumption of audiobooks is like Multiplying by a factor of five every Year this was Um that and they said they literally Don’t have enough content to provide the Appetite for it and I was sitting back Thinking about this and I think It’s just not the same experience no Listening to a book as opposed to

Consuming because I had the same problem With words like you because I was a you Know I read and read and read as a child And this pronunciation of words that are Their their words that you see often Written in the written word but not used In um conversational language and Um Um I I I got into like I I can I I can Relate to that point you’re making there This is the thing you know when you Think about just think about it like You’re reading a book and it’s the same Goes for even right reading on screen There’s a similar analogous situation Because I’m not a great fan of that Either way even though I have to do it Yeah yeah yeah I’ll come back to that But like for example the audio book you See the point about it is you’re holding Up you’re reading a book and you come Across a paragraph and something in the Paragraph triggers you into a kind of a Daydream Would you continue reading you continue Reading even though you’re in the Daydream right I do that quite a lot and Then it comes in as a paragraph and You’re still in the Daydream and you Realize that you’ve there’s been about 150 words yes that you haven’t taken in So you have to go back to your trading You have to gather together what you had In the trade dream what connection it

Had what you’re reading and then you Have to reread this other paragraph and All of us that creates a kind of an Exponential uh explosion of Understandings that might not even be in The text yeah or because everybody you Know the light the book belongs to the Reader you know what’s in it The reader reads his life in the book You know what I mean like the author Really can only put stuff down and you Kind of in a certain way teach the Reader from the first sentence how to Read what you’ve written But ultimately You’re giving them something which Because I firmly believe this Jerry that That we can’t really tell people Anything we can only remind them of what They already know at some level and we Can draw it out of them you know now we Can bring give them some sort of Frameworks or scaffoldings in our words To kind of but it’s also if they don’t Have the cultural experience that we’re Trying to address then it’s not going to Happen so no no and I I think an Analogous thing happens when you’re Reading on screen which is that and There’s a book called uh forget what’s Called I believe it’s just about uh The the internet and and come back to me It’s written about 10 or 12 years ago uh And I was talking about the way that the FL that they they

Imaginative qualities of the human Person had been flattened out by reading On screen because you don’t have that Capacity to kind of Go off into your in Because there’s all these hyperlinks There’s one thing you know you’re Constantly being distracted and I think Also that when you read from the screen I do anyway it’d be interesting to hear What you say but I always there’s a Tension that builds up within me when I’m reading an article on screen uh yeah And I’m saying there’s somebody writes Now necessarily yeah yeah and I’m the Same and who reads and to be fair in my Case I’m reading Too much like most of what I’m reading Is on screen too I have to put my hands Up and say I’m as guilty as anyone but It’s important to read it it’s also Important to read from the page I’ve Discovered yeah absolutely 100 yeah But the thing I suppose there with the That’s why I’m that’s the element I’m Interested in because I’m kind of when I’m thinking about this and trying to Factor in a reasoning Um for you know I think the attention Span of readers is so minute now it’s Really difficult to capture their uh Imagination and I think imagination is The thing because I think the written Word on the page forces the reader to Spark their own imagination and that can

Lead them anywhere yeah well okay first I remember this damn in the book the Book was called the shallows by Nicholas Carr and it was written about 2009 That’s a book about the effective Reading on screen so it’s very Interesting book and all that and we Might touch on it again but this is Really I think vital uh understanding of What’s happening to people in their mind Because one of the things that I’ve Noticed about the internet inflict and The the the the the the You know the technology that goes along With it is that writing has changed Radically for the most part like it’s Now writing is directed at one uh two Two really objective one is the the Campaigns of crude information Uh and the other then is a degree of Commentary maybe more concentrated Information but I mean I remember once Having a discussion about a guy in a sub An opera not bad editor in the Irish Times the guy called Dick Grove and he’s Dead now but he’s nice guy you know but Very very kind of taciturn and grumpy You know and and and and uh I must Remember once uh saying to him one day We’ve gone on reasonably well he he Didn’t get on with people really you Know and I’m sorry guys welcome to Anybody and but I remember using the Phrase you know writing in relation to

My column you know it’s talking about You know writing and he just said Writing has nothing to do with it you’re A processor of information that’s it And this is the key see the internet and The screen is is entirely about the Processing of information it’s not Writing as such at all unless you make It so unless you make it so yeah you Have to and that’s why people become Irritated by what I do very often Because they don’t have the patience Because the Internet doesn’t allow you To be patient as a book who knows you Know like a book demands that you be Patient it demands that you you paid Attention it’s like a woman you have to Pay attention you know uh otherwise it Will leave you you know yeah But it also trade a book trains you to Be pitched like you know if once you get In it kind of trains you to be patient As well like yeah but like let’s put it Into real terms like what’s missing then And what’s missing is the the layers Upon layers that a good writer are not Making any claims for myself I do my Best yeah yeah but you create layers and Layers of You know Contradiction and Paradox and and and And irony and and you know uh uh you Know uh speculation and humor and and All these things layered in in the in

The Resonance of language I mean that’s What attracts us to arrival that’s why We call our writer a writer you know It’s not that they are particularly Giving us any new information and that’s Not the point of it you know it’s Telling us about the meaning of the World in using information and about a Particular subject or issue or a person To do that and that’s gone now pretty Much on the internet that kind of a Multiplicity of of of of uh you know Poeticism and all of these things that That is oh it’s not poetry we’re also Supposed to be important come on Off you know like you know what I mean Like uh you see so uh That’s that’s what I’m getting at that You know when I was talking to Thomas Tonight but I had that in mind but I Also had something else or several other Things in mind uh for example in Relation to the novel or a relationship Poetry or in relation to the theater uh That in the last 30 years I wrote plays In the theater 25 30 you know 30 years Ago I I will play for radio and and uh You know I have some experience of that Although I kind of like my circumstances In life uh kind of pushed me out of that Uh pretty early on but it also it’s Probably pushed me out at a time when it Would have happened pretty much soon Afterwards anyway because of the changes

That were happening and that all these Forces were talking about were moving Into those areas You know to commandeer and and approach You know To to uh To make their own of that those art Forms like for example in theater what Was happening was that you know the Elijah up to that point had been kind of Sacrificed I mean if you were uh Brian Fried or Tom Murphy for example what’s Happened was and I knew Tom Murphy Worked very well I knew how he operated He wrote everything in long time but Then he gave it to a typist to type up And then he would correct that and and You know and then it would be tied up And it’ll be a final draft of Tom Murphy’s play which will be delivered to The Abbey theater to the director And the process was that if anybody Wanted to change as much as a syllable Of that script They had to call Tom in and consult some About it and how much polony sag and he Would listen and he would later saying Hmm No No no [Laughter] I’m done with that Yeah most of these kind of the the Earth Kind of collaborative process you know

The director was kind of like not just a Director he was also a kind of director Writer at a drama tourist and all that And there are certain benefits for Younger playwrights for sure and and uh You know taught them the time but the Problem was that it also got his feet Under the table Of creating certain things of a certain Scripts That were taking them out of the hands Of the writer you know that’s the right The writer script was seen as purely the Foundational documents you know and that They could be you know extrapolated upon And improvised upon and so on and uh in The end advisors wouldn’t know where he Was or she was by a marriage because the Anxiety to get the play on the stage For which you needed the cooperation of The director Required you then to make compromise After compromise to the point where at a Certain point in the production Of the play You would no longer be sure into your Play or whether you knew what it was About anymore yeah that was happening to A lot of writers and you know the so the Whole thing became very directive and I Think something analogous was happening To the novel not in the same way Although there were people or editors And there were also as I came across in

In recent years what they called covers Like the color is an extraordinary Phenomenon because it’s not an edger if You have an edger who does who says okay Your book’s too long and you know we Need to cut uh 20 000 words out of it uh You get a register to do that and they Say okay here’s here’s my suggestions And there are suggestions and they’re All marked and I’ve given rationale in The margin as to why they should be they Can be caught maybe it’s quite Duplication on something we said earlier It’s not necessary uh it’s not relevant To the point you’re making whatever Yes which is fine it’s painful very Painful as you would yes But then no I got these things in the Last I left one publisher because of This they give me back uh the accord’s Headers of my book which eventually took 20 000 words out of it but didn’t tell Me a which kind of which 20 word pounds The most they were or giving any Indication where they were of what they Were about I might start trying to read this book I Said but yeah this book doesn’t make any Sense to me yeah absolutely sure yeah Yeah so I think all this is happening This has been happening in in in these Forms and see people are so Keen pretty You know nowadays people go to college And they’re doing their literary courses

And you know writing courses and all That and they feel they’re they’ve been As it were they’re being educated to be Educated all their lives in other words They’re being educated into the role of Students whereby they never actually Feel confident enough to say well Actually I’m on my own now and I want to Write what I want to write they’re Currently being directed And and of course the same pulse has Happened in journalism a lot it happened To me in one newspaper I was out there In the mail for a while uh they have a Thing called a weekly call from the Editor like which is called Direction You know and it’s just a nice a nice Chat that can go on for an hour and a Half but at the end you are doing Something which you hadn’t planned to do Generally generally so it is although Sometimes it can be the answer if it’s Good Edge that’s not the point but Anyway so so all of these processes in Part of what I was getting that and what I spoke to Thomas but I was also Speaking about You know the idea now what we’ve seen in The last uh three years from uh writers You think about you’re like where is the Solar units in you know this There isn’t there isn’t anybody there’s No great artist now novelist apart from Interestingly in rock and roll

A Van Morrison Eric Clapton you know Mark Dean Brown you know I and Roger Daltrey uh people might be aware John Lyden You know great Heroes of our of our Youth and uh they did stand up but but Tell me the name of a novelist In fact the novelist that I know like They were around beating people up for Not wearing masks or or raping people And all this sort of stuff well the only One that’s done anything and it’s more In the transgender arena is JK Rowling She’s kind of been the only one that you Would say has took a stand I I curiosity That you brought up there John actually And like I I kind of I’ve kind of been Categorized in the Glo the global Narratives into four that you’re not Allowed these decisions have already Been made and we’re not entertaining any Opposition voices on so we have the Whole covert scam And vaccine scam if you want to put all That stuff together then you have this War In Ukraine and would Ukraine Russia then You have the transgender ideology and it Like I do view it as an ideology as Opposed to any You know a separate to any dysphoric Issues that might be in that Arena And the other ones the climate Yeah

So if when you the way I’m looking at You’re What’s left to talk about or argue about In the world as Dwayne Lookers if you Can’t have a counter opinion on those Four subjects the ones that are sweeping The you know sweeping through Ireland there’s no political party in Ireland we had to look at this at the Moment is there’s a lot of this kind of Nitpicking on you know local issues but On the on those four issues nearly every Political entity in Ireland is lined up Together Well okay well to come to that point First of all I’d say in just in relation To the artist the novelist I mean I’m in The situation now and the point Ultimately I was saying there I think The Thomas was that and I don’t feel that I can trust any writer Who doesn’t understand what’s happening In the world now and who doesn’t show That understanding by being absolutely Frantic Either literally yeah yeah or or in Other ways right or scream at the high Heaven like we are right that’s that’s What I I don’t and anybody who’s telling People to wear a mask I’m never going to Read any of their books again Because I would be wasting my time with Such a writer who lacks any semblance of Understanding of anything to the extent

Of not understanding this and taking the Establishments by taking the sign of Other Philistines Against the people who would he would Expect to buy his books or her books but The issue then is a broader one about 360. that’s of course related to the Free Speech issue and it’s intrinsic to It because art is a fundamental element Of the state that And and you see what I I think Really neat there’s something here that Needs to be said that isn’t really kind Of to me to my ear it doesn’t I don’t hear it I don’t hear your Following People say well of course you know he Thinks it’s very important for democracy And we all value except when blah blah And that isn’t what actually the Situation is I mean please speech Just that we need to reflection Democracy If we can’t agree what Freedom looks Like you can’t build you can’t build a Foundation of anything really then and If and anybody who starts off saying Well I am a favorite sport no sorry You’re not in favor of assistive yeah You’ve just because the whole prophecy We’re speaking now is to stop other People speaking so stop yeah right the Point about three speeches is that it is Vital it is indispensable it is a

Cynical noun of democracy Speech means the right to say things That other people think are wrong People who don’t like you think are Wrong And if you don’t have that right then That Society is not free and therefore Can never be democratic Simple as that there’s no there’s Nothing it’s not and listen because I Hear all the people the quotation going Until this lip service of the whole eye We’re all in photography it is as if Free speech is some kind of adornment It’s like the Christmas decorations we Used to have when we were kids you know Those paper things and you take them With like codies and hang them up on the Ceiling with some contacts that that’s What free speech is and but it’s not That free speech is the Cornerstone of Any kind of freedom and and therefore There is no democracy you forget like The minute that you stop people speaking Freely that is to say saying the things That they want to say whether you like Them or not then democracy doesn’t exist In that space Once that stops so and I think that’s That’s the fundamental so you know Really the rich should stop there this Is because once you go beyond that and Start the arguing far between speech or Different kinds of free speech or

Against a certain forms of censorship They’re already playing their game you Know you’re saying oh well okay well now That I’ve made that point I go on to Argue with you about whether or not it Was like to do this no Twitter should be Closed down Today what time is it it’s it yeah but But by two times in life should be Closed down and not be allowed to open Again until it cleanse out all of its Top people And Rewritten its principle and agreed To be amenable to the rule of law which Is the Constitution of the United States Or the constitution of Ireland or Whatever in each the station that’s it Recently Questions but Um one is where are the you mentioned Vincent Brown earlier where the Editorial voices you know I don’t know You know Vincent’s a bit maramite to Some people but he was a singular voice At least we thought he was we’re like I I can’t where are they Where like Well I mean I eventually was retired now And I mean I think I’m crazy around About uh we had shot he’s a bit scared Of me though I think because you know I’m a total Pariah uh uh uh well I you Know I kind of had my ups and downs of Vincent and we go on sometimes and other

Times we didn’t get on and I I have a Lot of respect from I mean he was a Spectacular you know uh Shooting star of Irish media for sure For many years and you know he’s a hard Man to work for uh uh but you know we Learned so many of us would not be Around had he not existed for sure uh Because and he had that capacity to Inspire you and to invite you further And to drive you crazy and and all that So yeah but I don’t know I I was going To what’s possibly wrong that Vincent Isn’t coming out because I know he’s not And I haven’t really discussion with him And uh but I don’t talk to because I Would I certainly would say this Jerry That hadn’t been talking years ago Vincent would have been screaming a Little murder within 24 hours of the Announcement of the lock Zone well In Fairness to act S in an age when he was You know he was pushing on even then and We’ll say but he was one of the guys That stood up in that Infamous press Conference when Detroit you know when When that whole tsunami broke Um and at the time and yeah you know That had that moment those moments never Um even though there was only a couple Of moments at that point when all that Happened like we’ve had it this is a Bigger bigger issue by fire and there’s

Been nothing worse well that’s right I Mean you know I I you know like even Until there and maybe it’s something Like that yeah I know I just meant him As an example yeah no and he’s a good One it’s a good one and it’s a mystery Okay but the mystery is much deeper Because it extends far beyond that um Because Uh there has been a virtually Well there has been a total silent from Within the mainstream media on this yeah Not a lot of Silence but a complete uh Um capitulation to every demand of the Slum of the scum of the earth right yeah Which is what we’re dealing with And and then the policing of that and The imposition of that and what they do In their own platform so there’s the Newspaper or the broadcast the radio Show or the program the TV show the Program all that is is bad enough but What I’ve seen of what some of them are Doing on Twitter is like far above and Beyond the call of duty by any measure I Want to put a question here just on that Point I took i i a two degree Twitter enabled Journalists to get a personal massive Profile in terms of followers and that Was never act that was never available To a journalist specifically journalists Even though they were like somebody like Viewers were very well known but

You know back in the day if Twitter Existed in the 80s and 90s you’d have Had four or five hundred thousand people Following you on Twitter now that career Does that not create a dynamic where the Journalist is Suddenly rising to a personal following All right it’s influencing its influence In their writing because of that Personal following yes uh this is very Interesting joke because it took me Quite a while to figure out what was Going on here uh because I ran right Into this like into a runaway train uh About 2014 when I was attacked by a Black queen on TV and yeah for doing my Job As I understood it by the likes of the Irish times and I found thinking Standing back and thinking well the Editor is going to sort this out now and Double because my own colleague started Attacking me someone then I thought well Yeah I just wanted but the editor wasn’t A bigger uh scumbag than any of the People that were for attacking the Turned out so what was going on well Uh you know what we’re seeing was that All the protocols all the conventions All the understandings that I’ve had as A journalists up to that point Where it seems shredded without me no One is having feathers for example I Mean when I was in the uh when I was a

College in the Irish Times I mean it was Never necessarily expressed that he said It said to me But the idea was that it becomes New York Times when you went out and about You were representing the paper your Face was known yeah yeah and that Required a certain kind of yeah I didn’t It wasn’t sensorious in that sense it Didn’t mean you couldn’t speak your mind What you had to be respectful to people You had to you know you had to you know Uphold the values of the Irish Times Which are pretty strictly you know at That time they were written down in the The the the the the Codes they’re just the trust documents And so on all the times and I took them Reasonably seriously and I didn’t you Know uh uh and even I still love it so It still didn’t matter where you were Like if you were in a in a in a town Hall somewhere and there were priests There you were deferential towards the Priest and so on and you know authority Figures of that kind and you know you Know even though you might be critical Of them in a certain way or you might Criticize them in their column or Whatever that didn’t mean that you were Disrespectful but suddenly all these Bets were off and it was like you could Just slag off like the one thing you Were discouraging even in print that

Time from getting into a tit for 10 Arguments with other columnists in the Paper this is very much discouraging it Did happen occasionally but after one or Two you know rallies it will be put out You know uh and and okay fair enough you Know the public World shouldn’t be Expected to see this in-house fighting In fighting you know I have forced out Into the openness perhaps it could be in Certain situations depicted and all that But all this is gone And so I think my understanding of What’s actually have what actually Happened Gary and this is the global Phenomenon was that the median came Under attack came under pressure From the internet and from the fact that The product they were producing and Having you know to trip to devote Resources to producing Had been had to be put onto the internet Where it became a free product And so they were no longer able to to to Uh you know uh Monetize this product to the sense they Had been so their resources began to To to to Evaporate and the whole model began to Change uh whereby you know more and more Commentary became the the the the the The notes of the card the you know the Dominant notes of the chord of the media Card and the Twitter thing went along

With that because it allowed the Commentary the colonists or whoever to Promote his own commentary And get it get audience in for that and That became vital to the more the new Business model of the media And this this had I missed it that that You know these two models the old style And the other this new one had passed Each other in the nice and and Everything had changed at that instant And suddenly I found that I I wasn’t Entitled to the protection of my own Editor even though the terms of my Employment were that I was entitled to Give my opinion was required to write my Opinion in my column uh you know and now I was being actually uh driven uh out of My job out of my life if they could do It For doing the same thing so that that Kind of I think was a a real Revelation To me now what you see then that this in The covet uh period is a bit large I Mean but I think there’s another Dimension Jerry I honestly this is my Honest opinion that many of those guys Are actually taking dropsies From the government For doing what they’re doing because What they’re doing is open now and so Moronic very often that you know they Nobody’s no self-respecting person could Possibly put out what they’re putting

Out unless no but you can see in them You can see it’s almost the banality of The evil it’s little by little by little You could see in the last 40 48 Hours a Good example we’ve had the Pfizer Revelations Um in the European Court last week and You can see the media at the weekend Making a first attempt Of an explanation because they know Um They know they’re out to see on this Issue and specifically why they’re out To see is they didn’t they nearly get Away with this transmission issue except For the covert pass the covert pass has No logic now whatsoever and whatever Anyone said about us it was based on the Fact that Um Were a threat to transmission that the Vaccinated worms well yeah and of course That’s cool that’s the point Jerry but Of course it went much farther than oh When way further yeah yeah the assertion Of that they were there actually Actively trying to demonize people for That reason and state that they should Be denied fundamental freedoms and Denied their right even to to have Medical treatment or all these kind of People whether it’s Piers Morgan or Whatever I used to call them Slow Joe on RT there sometimes you know oh geography

No no the other Joe he’s he’s low Joe And he was having the fluent of course But there’s another guy Joe I forget his Name uh he was in all the entity but he Was on no Jewish yes and he was he was Trying to demonize people who were on Vaxxed this is communists It’s almost like is this Way to be the the the the Jury judge jury and executioner of People who are not doing what you insist They ought to be doing well you see that Was the benefit this is one of the Really aggressive problems and is And to allude back to your earlier point About Emma we were talking about there Two minutes ago and there’s a very act There was a benefit to society by not Knowing the politics of your journalist You know as you said when you would work Walk out in the street now they’d know Over time they’d get to know your biases Or to read your column but now we know Every single Um any every single idea or thing that a Journey you know a journalist is into we Know them Their audience is based on That a commonality with that Set of biases that that person has and Like you’re never the thing with Joe Shares like you know I don’t I wouldn’t You know not characterize it I wouldn’t Say is the brightest the price is the Best the brightest uh and that there

Certainly was Um it was very easy to get types like That he’s more of a presenter type that Guy who’s been fed lines through his Career and that’s a possibility I I Don’t know in that particular case but I Do know as well though that you know There’s a related phenomenon to all of This which is the creation that the Market the media began to realize that You know maybe about 15 years ago that That all all the old bets were off and That they needed to pursue an entirely Different way of thinking about their Products and what they did instead of Actually You know up to that up to that point There was a reasonably kind of most Newspapers like the Irish times for Example are the independent would have Had reasonably Democratic outlooks that There was a mix of material and and in Fact very often you know if you were you Know somebody who who took unusual Positions or you know skeptic Information about certain topics you Know you were much in demand by editors If you’re a freelancer for example Because they they wanted to balance Their content that that all stopped About 15 years ago because they realized That actually what they should be doing Is going after a single demographic Which as it happened would be what we

Now recognize as the warp demographics Because they were the Beyond spending Emotion mostly the young spending Portion of the population Yeah that’s right and and so the and so The creation of filter bubbles became a Good thing I mean I remember reading Books in which this in the beginning Which in which this was described as a Very dangerous phenomenon but actually It became the favored model of many Media organizations that’s exactly what They were trying to do the New York Times for example was trying to do that And there’s a very good very good book That came out there recently last year Uh a woman called the Unger sardon at her surname is double Barrel name I forget only enough for the First name was she’s an evolution Newsweek and she’s a Marxist But you know all that considered Brilliant book because she goes through The the whole mechanism of how the media Developed this kind of new uh thing Whereby to the next to the normative you Know we’ll say middle age or older Sensibility it would be just that Everything’s gone crazy You’ve just gone crazy no no they’ve did What’s actually happening is deeply Irrational They’re pursuing they’re doing what the Guy down in the underground uh uh car

Park said to you know the two boys some They were investigating more water gets You know follow the money follow the Money uh you know like that’s still the Rule and and with media and with a lot Of this stuff that’s kind of what you Have to understand about it I mean but They hold Trump phenomenon by and large You can break it down to that that he he Basically played the Judo Fighters trick He used the his opponents uh you know Needs yeah yeah against him by actually Luring them into providing them with Publicity because they wanted to use Them to sell their products and as a Result they made them president of the United States Yeah you know and so so this has all Been going on in the last you know I Learned we thought in relation to say Abortion and the gay marriage thing and All that that that’s what they were Essentially doing and that therefore I Mean you know there was a Trope going Around the Irish Times you know for for Uh for I heard it several times for Heard a year or so before I left and Started the right afterwards but it’s Still going around and it came from Heard from the the managing director not Directly but somebody would tell me and The answer and various other luminaries And the problem is exactly that right The future of the Irish Times is Conor

Pope not John Waters [Laughter] Well in that case I know but I would say that wouldn’t That yeah but but that but that’s just Changing you know that’s exactly and That’s exactly it because he was doing He was the guy he was telling people you Know well the price of the cappuccino in Dublin has a compared to Waterford is This this and you know that was his Specialty right I was going into the Soul of the nation and yeah but you see Isn’t that it that that’s I suppose you Could admit you make the argument there That what’s been most successful is the Ability to get masses of people to care About minutia instead of you know deeper Issues that’s it that’s it oh yeah you Don’t want them thinking about big stuff Yeah yeah that’s 100 so when you see That in the in the we’re trying this Together in terms of the journalism you See yeah like The other thing that happened with that Then was that a lot of of journalists Who would have previously been just kind Of You know Uh basically run the den hacks you know Were certainly able to become qualified Superstars on Twitter yeah yeah they Would like I I used to I’m still Fascinated I was a predictor journalist

It was actually a so-called conservative But he used to ring me up and and boast To me that he he had been uh nominated The 27th most influential uh Conservative commentator in Irish media All right on Twitter on Twitter and I Said Twitter is an evil domain you know Don’t be telling me about this you know You know like like but you know it’s Almost it’s almost like just sorry to Put in there it’s almost like for the Journalistic class Twitter was almost Like the geeky guy who never had a Girlfriend suddenly Going out with the best looking woman in The city Um yeah and their reaction to us I see It with a lot of Um male want people especially Um and the Trump the Trump phenomenon is A good example you brought up earlier Because that what really if you paid Attention to the Trump presidency And the way the media behaved there it Was it was the exact same Playbook here During covet if you you know in terms of The narrative and all that stuff but Again I suppose you know being proud of Stuff like that as a journalist is just Like I don’t know yeah that all of that you See This again you Would see people are just crazy

Like they’ve abandoned all rules but in Fact they were actually following news I Mean I thought recently an old clip from 2016 of um most of the channel four Women that ran a foul of of uh Jordan Peterson Um Yeah anyway she’s she’s yeah she’s kind Of wavy hairy Blondie one and uh she’s a Good presenter I mean in her own way She’s like and God she’s kind of smart And and sharp and courageous in that Context but uh she was interviewing Norm Chomsky who’s actually quite much more Nuance character sometimes than he seems To be you know and and she was asking About Trump and he was kind of been a Bit more nuanced than she liked about Trump and saying well he’s talking about The fact that the reason that Trump was Successful was because of which is Another part of that story uh the people That he that he attracted that they saw The people who had been abandoned and Neglected by the Democratic party and The political system and uh the American Establishment the blue collar people and Also on and they’ve been basically cast Out and you know and uh and she just Interrupted yeah but what about you know The danger of Donald Trump you know what I mean and that’s that’s the market you See that’s the market they were going For and now I saw all this stuff I

Didn’t understand it took me a while to Put it together from 2014 on after I Left the Irish Times in 14 uh and I I Spent a year as you said earlier I went To the end of Superman it was a bad move I should have quit there and then uh but I went back in and I I did some stuff You know and But I I had a bad feeling I knew that The referendum came closer in 2015 I I Saw I mean some of the stuff but I won’t Go into it it’s just too complicated but They the constant kind of you know Tapping my ankles Uh by The Establishment in the paper you Know they wanted me there to be the now This is the interesting shift Because no longer we want you there Because you’re an alternative voice no We went to the application alternative Voice but don’t make it too alternative You don’t mind okay yeah yeah yeah yeah Yeah can you be the alternative Voice Who can live with this result kind of You know to yeah That’s it that’s it that’s it and don’t Be too you know good or too factual you Know like you know just just kind of you Know why why you also worked out for all The all this stuff anyway like just calm Down and you know Isn’t that another version of this Decision has been made Yeah there’s no counter argument I’ve

Like I’ve heard another journalist say To me that they just couldn’t get public That was following the pro-life Um you know rallies and stuff around the Country and just couldn’t get it in the Paper just couldn’t get any interest in The papers just like you can’t get an Interest in vaccine injuries today That’s it and and you know there are Factors there and sometimes it’s you Know you kind of go immediately to the To the to the uh the the idea of Manipulation for ideological reasons Which is undoubtedly a factor but there Are the other factors as well that these Things all synchronize so can you Economic model of the newspapers fits That fits that yeah because they’re Aiming at this constituency because Nobody else wants to buy newspapers very Much anymore all the people are kind of You know let’s just buy them all to have It it’s an amazing thing actually how so Many older people and I you know I I Don’t really understand it but I do know And it kind of described to me from Difference Directions and I’ve seen it that people Who ought to have seen through the Irish Times by now just can’t see it they’re Still reading it because they’re kind of Like you know in automatic pilots in That context and they just read it you See the Irish times for example is a

Very interesting product because It was Doug escapee who is debated the The Godfather of the of the uh Irish Times in this modern Incarnation was Illegal newspaper genius and you know he Really talked through the newspaper in All its aspects like he wasn’t just Somebody who was interested in politics Here like Geraldine Kennedy or you know Interested in in climate change or Something like that or you know science Or called you know whatever he he was Interested in newspapers and in the idea Of creating loyalty and he like he paid As much attention to the crossword as he Did to the front page story Because he he knew that as far as the Proportions of the leadership of their Times bought his body not necessarily Purely for the crossword but because of The cause for it and like uh a colleague There was a guy called John Healy was a Column from the Irish Times it was Douglas gave his best friend and he used To go fishing and and he was telling me That various times have edited more from The riverbank than from the JC’s desk in The Newsroom so he used to go fishing And he you know he would and so Yeah Haley one day had explained he’d Opened up the page the the the leader Page in the Irish Times And he just said look at that page he Said just look at it he said on the

Left-hand side the editorial the paper Comes in it’s pondering this is the view Of the paper this is the voice of the Irish Times in the world right You know and then he says you move is The middle the letter is The people are answering back And up here you know the irishman’s Diary which is a territory look at the World right And then down here you have some Marriages that you know and all that and That’s just but then over in the very Tiny corner Which is written by two people the Gatesby wrote it and Healy wrote the two Of them wrote it they they they they Retain them and said it was their Sandwich in an initial H in this in the Case of Healy and why in the case of Gageby and this is just a description of Something in nature that day so he says The paper change comes in pondering Mother goes out with a whisper But that’s almost a poetic look at the The offering like do you know what I Mean yeah How far has the Irish Times fallen from That kind of sensibility and sensitivity Is my point that he can’t actually that And the the fact I would see the fact That I had to leave is a symptom of that Fall that I couldn’t possibly and it Wasn’t that I just couldn’t comprehend

That what had happened to the paper uh And how I could possibly fit into it Anymore when I wasn’t in incisely but Respected for being in the slightest bit Different Yeah and that must then explain to a Degree that you know the the the the the Process over time peop the very various Journalists met the compromise with Themselves to go with the flow that’s Right and then what we when we got to The the covert episode I mean that was Just a slight Advance on that whole Thing I mean they’ve just ramped that up Somewhat but it wasn’t that much it was Already that it was already there that Process was already entrained and the License had been extended to all these Guys to be pigs to people in a useful Way On behalf of the things that we want to Advance That was permitted right and trample on Anybody who gets in your way or Disagrees with you or questions you You know that was the new ethic as it Were ethic is the right word Anti-antiatic cancer balls but you know So that so that’s kind of uh I think uh Uh kind of explains to some extent uh What’s happened there’s also the fear of People losing their jobs people have the Fear of of you know because that can Happen you know the media has become

Quite vicious now you know and and the Wages have gone way down the last 10 15 Years their information yeah if you look At the if you look at the now For example as a publicate a modern Publication it almost seems to me like An information processing exercise so Covert was perfect you had the set piece Daily conference you had a press Releases twice a day with facts and Figures of this that the other so the The Machinery there to produce Information Was set up early so that and that’s all We got for a year and with little Variations and no thoughts no not not Much thought but like those I used to Always you know the whole thing with the The whole thing with the case numbers Every day Those articles were the most looked at Articles so from a from from a monetary Point of view as well they were Producing digital income Um yes yes but also you know it’s very Interesting that when you think about it That kind of processing of certain kinds Of information not just information but Certain kinds like it was scientific Yeah like information but scientistic Information it was a singular view of The options and there was no room for Any kind of what you might call Philosophical exploration of any of this

Kind of thing uh that was frowned upon And it just wasn’t there whereas if you Think about the model of Journalism that I came from and and was attracted by in The first place you know because I was Really attracted by journalism from you Know as a pretty early age and I wanted To be a writer yeah And and like the word journalists had a Magic to me you know the idea of John Waters journalist I used to make me like Dizzy as a as a teenager you know so so You know both if you think of the model That represents it’s a model of Journalism that is much closer to Literature Than it is to clarkton for every second Yes yes To a territory officer grade exactly Yeah And that’s what it until That has been eliminated now you’re not Allowed unless you have a freshly Licensed like Fenton or two or somebody Who is a you know he manages to actually Disguise the same kind of scientistic Nonsense in a slightly poetic style and That makes him acceptable within the Irish times but without that he would if He was of a different Viewpoint he Wouldn’t be tolerated no no he’s like You’re you’re almost you’re almost the Alter ego to him in a sense Yeah in a what’s you know not acceptable

To what acceptable well it yeah and it It’s his his quality of his writing on Top of his ideological yeah that makes Him him still there rather than color Pope uh occupying his chair yeah So I suppose the the next question then Is we’ve gone through we’ve gone through A lot there but I suppose The next question how would you see how Would you see the seating of something New and different and I’ll take it from The point of view is you were one of the First adopters of substack Um and now there’s a lot coming on Stream TuneIn I came on maybe a year ago But you were what did you see in that Publication or did you see anything at All as as to the reason why you chose Substack Well uh uh it was actually my uh uh Um stepdaughter who saw Sarah and she Okay she she because she’s aware of all This stuff and and uh she suggested to Me and I I’m I’m kind of Um I’m not I’m not a Luddite or anything Like that people think I but I I take a View of technology and all that that I I Only need to know a certain amount and I Refuse to learn any more than that at Any moment because I I just it it Doesn’t make sense to me I mean like you Know like who who could possibly deal With the way you have to have passwords On the internet for all kinds of things

But they keep insisting that they have Letters and numbers and other symbols How are you supposed to remember these Things so every time I want to re-sign Onto anything I’m involved in I have to You know do a new password which I Promptly forget so I mean that simple Thing anyway you know I I but as soon as I started exploring as soon as she Started explaining it to me I saw Something in subtract that was really uh Seen to go against the grain of the Contemporary tank Uh which is that they genuinely seem to Believe in free speech this genuinely Seemed to believe that they wanted to do Good writing they wanted to have a Platform that would be you know Respectable and and uh you know decent And and and and and challenging and all Those things which is like it brought me Back to say you know Miguel like you Know back 35 40 years before uh and and The fact that you know you were Respected for actually having high Standards uh for your you know content And your self-expression and your Writing style and all those things and So I felt oh this is interesting I I’ll Have a look at this now there’s Something very weird happened to me on Literally my first day I mean when I was Uh I you know because I I I really think You know that they’re they’re all these

Forces out there watching us all the Time and trying to cut to strip us up You know and actually it was when I Started to to monetize my site after Some months uh within two days days I Got a threat of being taken down because One person had complained I had one Complaint from One customer They I forget what the complaint was it Was something stupid well somebody with The financing of it or whatever but But the rule was that if you had any More than one percent of your your your Uh subscribers were in disputes with you They would suspend it was suspend your Monetization this was the the subsides The monetizing company was doing this And I it took me about three days to Actually point out to them well seeing As I’ve only five subscribers you know You know that you know you got me back To rights but it’s a stupid Rule and and I’m just not you know I’m I’m not even Going to listen to you saying it’s Repeating this because it’s so logical So yeah I got out of it but but I so I Liked substack very much and uh yeah I Think I was one I may have been even the First in Ireland as such I’d say you Were Yeah uh it’s really it’s really Interested me and really and it seemed To me the closest that I had found Online to to the the ethic that I’d

Grown up with of things being written Because not just because of the Information but because of the way they Were written and that was tolerated or It was valued or it was you know and and That that seemed to me to be that you Could communicate at multiple layers or Multiple levels uh uh you know of Sensibility and of of tone and of you Know yeah so on that that you didn’t Have to Just kind of uh churn out arguments and Facts and and data and so on uh which You can stick in there as well obviously But uh that that that’s what interests Me about journalism I mean that you know And I’m interested in the possibility That we may move Online or to the screen to a point Whereby You know Does it be akin to the book or the Magazine you know that it’s again to This like this idea of the magazine that You can you know stick it in your pocket You know and walk down the street and Then yeah have a get a cup of coffee and Sit inside the window and start you know Uh you know and open it up and and and And look at it and read a paragraph and Then look out the window you know and Think about it and as opposed to this Kind of agitated crouched posture over The screen trying to figure out what’s

All this about what’s he said Really you know it really is So You know I I that’s kind of what I would like you Know I I You know I I haven’t had this belief for A long time that that in a strange way I Keep talking about the weight everything Seems to be happening in reverse that You know I said it’s the promise like That in some ways you know you know the The when you look at the end and made New music express and then Smash Hits That they seem to come in the wrong Order but the new music fest was so good That it should have come after it should Have been an evolutionary development For Snapchat but it happened they were They were around you know and I have the Same thing about the newspaper that the Newspaper or the magazine are such a Perfect form of Technology as well that They need they should have really Happened after the electronic stuff yeah They’re much better and the other thing There was a device being invented there For a while which had the the Flexibility of the page but if you ever Seen to go anywhere you know I can’t Remember what it’s called yeah Okay yeah so the plastic page in which The text will appear I mean you can roll It up you know and you’re carrying it

Anyway you know and that thing now that Wouldn’t solve the problem but I think There is that problem still That you the best you can actually do Is okay hold up on it I put it like this That in the book or the the the book or The or the magazine Have that capacity to become part of Your being while they’re racing raising Them whereas with the screen you have to Leave ironically because it’s so much Part of your head in another way you Have to actually Leave Your Existence And consulted You you look at it and you you say okay Okay and then you go back to being Whoever you are or wherever you are you Know so it’s not integrated yeah and and Maybe this is the problem that we’re Talking about transhumanism maybe this Is precisely part of uh this whole idea That the next phase you know the the I Know Elon Musk is involved in all this Stuff up that we no longer need the Mobile phone because it will be in our Body yeah yeah to emphasize technology So that that it would become Internalized now that’s a very Interesting and and as they have to add Very quickly it’s quite scary concept Uh because we have no idea how that will Work I mean for example I I recently got Because I’m deaf and one year I recently Got a a Crossing which I’m wearing now

I’ve only had it for about three weeks Now but uh I’ve been told by the Audiologist that it would take up maybe Three months From my brain to get used to it that my It’s my brain that hears it’s not my Ears baby the ears are just Vibrating things but if my brain adheres And I can feel that already I can see it That that my brain is kind of the first Week or so let’s say what’s this like What’s this stuff like to do this is Acceptable you know and I was making all Kinds of strange kind of thing and Making it very uncomfortable and Stressful and now it’s kind of calmed Down and and Um so you know I can see that who you Know that technology can become Integrated into my being quite easily Oh I think like I think if you look if You take it the analogy is that if you Wanted to be really dark about it you Could say that the the phone age is Almost like a a necessary condition and Step of the mind for maybe five or six Or seven years to bring us to the next Stage because I don’t know if you notice This but I noticed this a lot if I Consume too much digital information Um over a period of time and that Happens to me quite a lot because I’m Always ducking and diving in some

Information or something Fundamental things that I’ve known all My life kind of go like Um you know names or something like that And it’s almost a sign that Jesus Christ How could I forget that name you know I’ve known it all my life but it’s like My mind is filled up with Gunk or too Much and it’s a sign I’m Thomas assigned To walk away and Um breathe out from it well but we need Yeah yeah but there’s another syndrome There Gary I think that maybe I would Add in there which is that When you have this thing in your pocket And at some deep unconscious level You know that if you want to find out You know who was the captain of the Irish soccer team in 1990 That it’s only 20 seconds away at the Most So why should you remember that that’s That’s the Deep what if that’s the Deep We kind of sort of think you know that Yeah It’s an end all situation but it’s not It’s an either or you know yeah yeah Yeah you know it’s it’s an it’s not a uh And plus it’s either or you know that That somewhere in the brain says well Look it didn’t Define that out there Last week by checking out what what you Know I’m sure he’ll know that as well so We’ll just wait that out there just just

Erase that bit there right or or hide it Away that’s the right thing I find it’s Interesting actually you mentioned that Because I I kind of because I’m a good Deal or new like so I kind of put that Down to my advancing years and but Actually it’s comforting in a strange Way to hear yourself because I and I’m Pretty much convinced that actually it Is Um That that I’ve noticed actually that That thing will not come to me when I Want it but it’ll come to me the next Day yes Yeah you know I I can name like that That I know as well as yours I guess it Could be in your name tomorrow yeah yeah Yeah yeah no it’s and what I know and That’s what I think there’s this there’s These little Clues is what I said like You could always you’re you know when This happens you start thinking about Jesus is it something bad but I was Talking to a friend of mine about this And he said he’s exactly the same thing Happens to him is you know a neighbor Three Doors Down that he’s lived aside For 15 years suddenly you can’t remember The daughter’s name and their friends And their kids are over and back and Then it comes when it’s not needed and Another thing that happens with that Jerry is that you’re not in the name

With a face becomes difficult if the First place is out of context so you’re Looking at such and I know this person And and yet I can’t can’t put a name on This person now even though this is very Familiar Faith to me and they’re smiling At me and anyways now I’m going to have To say hello Tommy or Hello Mickey or Whatever it is and I won’t be able to And I’m not able to the next thing I Have to yeah Yeah yeah and you start bluffing it from There and they’re amazing means of Course but nobody I can see you see I I Don’t know about you Jerry but I can see When people are doing this to me so I Suppose they can see me But I suppose the the serious issue then Is it leaves it kind of leaves Humanity In a very dangerous position that If that technology is is just taken away Our controlled our kind of rationed Um We have very tenuous ever more tenuous Links to the actual physical world and How to actually do things through our Own comprehension That’s right and and there are so many Things the many layers and layers and Theirs and there of that that’s uh you Know we’re not aware of uh and we you Know we’re very complacent about it in a General way I mean yeah because I’ve Seen the multiple ways in which you know

This technology could rebound up on People I mean people sort of say oh well You know you can’t have a machine that’s More intelligent than humans because it Will be humans who will be programming In the first place that’s a deeply naive New which is very very prevalent because First of all there’s all kinds of issues That move to be brought into the factory For example there is the the Intelligence of crowds for example in Other words did any crowd of average People of a mixture of people is going To be more intelligent together than any Single individual possibly in the world Ultimately yeah because you have a you Know a a range of different Understandings so if you can tap into That which they can because the Technologies they already have then they Can create a kind of communal Intelligence that’s going to out Trump Any individual first of all there’s all Kinds of things there’s also the work The way the workings of neural networks You know which allow kind of different Forms of information to be combined and You know starting off one another to Create the exponential new directions I Mean they’re doing this with medicines And and and so on now where they can Invent uh by by shoveling uh I’ll throw Into a cement mixer you know this yeah You know all the very Staffing in they

Can come out with a American cure for a Condition that nobody kind of uh that we They’re just after discovering so yeah There’s all kinds of stuff happening and People are thinking oh well you know and You know I had to spend years ago on my Cooling you know he’s a brilliant man But at that time we’re talking about in The early 90s like he used to say to me Well no he said if you think about it The human being is such an intelligent Sophisticated as a warrior machine he Didn’t see that through the machine that Way but he said if you just think about Just when you’re crossing the road the Amount of calculation you have to do uh You know the the character left the Character right the bicycles and the Lorries yeah the relative speed of each One uh have I time to go across the road Before you know that just the amount of Calculation involved in the accident Would be impossible for a computer but That’s no longer true now it was then But it’s no longer true now and we we Need to stop being complacent about this Because it’s very dangerous and and the Problem is above all I mean the Prius The programming yes that’s important Who’s doing the programming but the Point is that that the programming will Involve all kinds of moral judgments Uh for example I mean there’s a famous Thing about what we call the trolley

Dilemma you know which relates to the The self-driving car Which is you know the idea that the Price limits are like a track a train Track which divides in a forks and up Ahead and on one side there’s it’s Runaway train on the one side there’s Like one person Working and then on the other there’s More other people you know uh just the Single man divert the train towards the One person and kill him or does he get To go organically down to the and kill The four people on the other side that’s Where it’s headed to that’s the Dilemma Now but when you actually start thinking About that and they put it into the you Know you’re out in your self-driving car And you’re having a little nap in the Back seat and your car is doing the Driving and off and up ahead there’s Kind of like uh you know a daughter a Young child is running out in front of The car and this all happens in Nano Second and so I can swear right or left To avoid the child but on the left There’s three teenage girls Uh and on the right there’s an elderly Couple Uh What was the the what’s the programming Of the AI going to tell the car to do at That moment and who decides and you know What kind of information will be

Available well it’s very likely that the Information by then available will be Along the lines of well we can see the Tree teenagers the other three young Women one of them is a from an immigrant From migrant from Africa and there’s two Irish currency and then on their side They all elderly couple are Pro-lifers and they got the man’s got Pancreatic or prostate cancer and they Can see this with a scan with the camera Around it that’s all and and choices Made to kill the elderly couple on the Basis of the the bias of that data As opposed to the cold the other side Now Who’s to debate that well There won’t be a debate because the Entire process will be inscrutable Because even the people who write these Algorithms will tell you that they don’t Know what they’re doing They don’t know how they’re combining The data that they’re being imported in Order to come out with what from the From the algorithm point is the optimal Data and there is no printout of the Reasoning process So this is where we’re going and and People don’t aren’t extremely they’re Not aware of this stuff in any way Either they’re not aware or they’re Already been Re are already there affected by a

Reprogramming process through the Algorithmic processes because the way I Look at news if you take news What’s been One of the primary causes of the Destruction and news is probably been Algorithms is is up there in the top Three if you take out the human element Algorithmically news Um is affecting what we see in our uh You know I know Would say my generation and down Are consuming 90 into their news through Social media feeds so that that’s an Algorithmic process it’s completely Destroyed news and it’s also creating Like a secondary effect of that this Processes we’ve got these weird We’ve got this weird Um relationship with the world around us As a result well that’s a very Interesting thing Gary because you know Uh I give an example of that that’s Happened to me recently and I’ve listed The Ukraine war And you know now if you go back to Previous Wars probably took me More more than 20 years ago saying you Know if you met people in the street They would be talking about it from a Certain point of view the information They had you know who is doing what to Whom and so on so on Um now what’s uppermost in most people’s

Mind is a position That they already have which is actually Given to them by the the media coverage It’s not like they have processed the Information under the site in one way or The other they already know what they’re Supposed to think or as it is yeah what They morally have to think about any Right thinking decent person would think This right so I had an experience that There a few weeks ago where I was coming Out of a cafe and in Dublin and and this Elderly couple as well you know the more Elderly that’s awesome yeah so and there Was that it’s depending and they Recognized me from the old days and so On they were asking me what I was doing And all this and and then and then the Man said to me he says are you worried About Putin And They said no I’m not I’m not worried About shooting at all Oh and he kind of was like taking a back At the idea and I said no I said well Why not he says and I said well I said I’m worried about NATO Because they’re the they’re the the Protagonist in this war And I said unfortunately Ireland is now Had hit him with them well this is this Is That’s a good example now Ireland Because I think this is an output

Because on one in one way of describing This war is you could say Um zielinski’s fighting a social media War And Putin’s fighting an actual War and people don’t people don’t you Know there I know there’s a lot of stuff Talked about war crimes every week and All this kind of stuff but people will Say when the Iraq War happened or any of The other ones that America was in when The war started everybody knew we’re in A war and certain rules of you know Certain Rules of Engagement uh come with A war you expect that you expect this And that’s why you go to so much trouble To ensure one doesn’t happen But it’s almost like that the Irish Reaction to neutrality since this war Has started it’s like we’re not a Neutral country anymore no it just Collapsed it just collapsed without Anybody ever ask in our opinion about it But it’s almost like it’s almost like You say well we’re going to start Training Ukrainian this came out in the Last 24 hours that you know all the European countries have have agreed to Train Ukrainian troops and Ireland’s Going to be part of that process so That’s to me de facto we’re no longer You know for training troops for a war and we’re not neutral you Know you can’t argue we’re in any way

Neutral but the it’s almost the social Media output of this is such uh this is Such a righteous War the most righteous War that’s ever been fought in history And there’s absolutely no Nuance to it So that’s why we can in this instance Say yes we’re for Ukraine like I agree With you 100 about Putin like in terms Of the worry I’m more worried that NATO Will will yeah well I I said to this man You know I said well I think you know Putin is doing what any leader of any People would do when he Secrets him on The tracks I mean we would I would I Said what that we had leaders of the Quality of Putin that we could depend on If we came under attack in the way that Russia became able to trade as a result Of NATO threatening to put nuclear Weapons on its very border uh I could You’re not hearing about that you need To stop listening to RG and you can stop Reading various times that’s the places You can get information on if you want To enjoy them and they were kind of Laughing at me you know giggling away to Themselves like children but you know Like there’s a this is the issue of Irish fatality it’s a central element of This because you know like Ireland People don’t know the history of Irish Neutrality life I mean I Ireland’s Neutrality has been a very significant Force in the world you know as an

Exemplary source and then also into the Uh walkings of people like Paddy mcatee And they’re going back happy vacant Again I think it’s practical he was the Minister for foreign affairs where back To Phoenix Hall in bay back in the in The 60s and and he he was one of the Central figures in in growing up the the Experiment treaties that were framed at That time now so Ireland was centrally Involved like it was a matter of great National pride that we were taking that Position and and now it’s like as if it Never happened and we shouldn’t you know We we’re now I guess belly calls so if You could imagine and maybe this make no Mistake about a jury that the people on Our side therefore they are lunatics Like that’s good at that that’s the Worry then with nuclear weapons is that There are so many Out of control lunatics in positions of Power in the West Yeah um like I you know and so what I Would say it’s almost like a video game In terms of how they might respond So our moronic so-called leaders at Least are the people who are Unfortunately in the situation that they Represent us at a political level like They they have drawn a Target on every One of our backs yeah yeah Belligerence in a conflict that is none Of our business

Mm-hmm you know Ukraine look very sleepy Wouldn’t know where Ukraine is or care Less but suddenly the olive Ukraine Flags hanging off their Windows because RTE says that’s the way to go like you Know you have to ask yourself like again We’re back to the kind of the idea of The iPhone and all this technology the Effect that’s already having without as Much as you know a piercing the skin of A single Irish person well they’ve Already done that but you know that’s Their first their first attempt but once You know like imagine what the Irish Mentality would be like Um under this kind of attrition if we Had you know uh the full AI uh Nanoparticle Treatment available uh uh I Mean who life would be over Humanity Would be over yeah And I suppose that’s I suppose that’s What I took out of your talk with Thomas And the transhumanism is that it’d be Very much a mistake to think Like the pros the process has got the Process has begun and accelerated over You know 10 15 years ago we’re we’re Starting to see some it’s almost like That film Armageddon where you have the Uh you have the approach and meteorites But before it comes you have these Cities destroyed by offshoots from us And we’re starting to see these Offshoots of something

Um that’s already amongst us I think Like my own thing with it is I I think Our relationship with the physical or Certainly a lot of people’s relationship With the physical world and the way they Used to think about it has has changed In this country and I can’t think of Any primary reason for that other than The effect of you know technology as uh As a kind of um influencer or well That’s one thing but there’s a related Phenomenon which is Um the idea of progress As an inevitability that the not alone Is it inevitable but there’s only in one Inevitable form that it can take like It’s not an optional thing it’s like It’s like as if it’s preordained by History or by science within history That this is the way things will be and Therefore you can’t question it and That’s of course the latest of the whole Technological term and and that’s kind Of people feel really like almost like a Uh highbound by that like they’re almost Like you know pen pinion together you Know that they’re not able to move and I Thought I wrote recently about the whole Idea of muteness mutism that has now Descended on the people yes yeah they’re Afraid they’re afraid to say anything in Case it would be the wrong thing or It’ll get them into trouble or get Because they can’t possibly see all the

Possible configurations of of error they May be commissioned by even saying it’s A nice day so they don’t even say that You know and and and uh well you know It’s a nice day or I could say it’s like What are you indifferent to climate Change is that true So you think this is a nice day do you Realize that the planet is flying this Very moment yeah like you know I I I Think and people are really Um You know I’ve never seen in my lifetime A population of Ireland that is so You know internally silent Yeah as as the population as there’s a Lot of things that I can actually see Now identify in the attacking having Happened in the last decade particularly But going back to Florida but in the Last decade these attacks through the LGBT movement and uh BLM and all of These they you know anti-racists and all These other people you know that you Know you could you call people racist And then you’re invited inventing my Anti-racist movement to to to attack Them because you call them racist you Know like it’s all this stuff and and Um I don’t know Jerry I I don’t know Where that’s this is going it’s not Going to be anywhere nice and um well no I don’t think I think you get either a Human either there’s a like you know if

You were to put up the option like I Think transhume I don’t think you I Don’t think even the algorithmic Mathematical models and the humans Behind it Are smart enough to Um Take us to this personal God step I Think they’re I think either get a human Reaction to it which doesn’t look likely Or you get a very significant nature Reaction to it oh no well that’s right I Mean they don’t know what they’re doing For sure yeah why not they don’t know What they’re doing but you see the part That isn’t to say that it’s something Very dark wouldn’t happen oh sometimes Very dark what could happen 100 yeah Because I mean one is you know the whole Idea Thomas hooked on this the idea of Satanic possession of Technology well That’s we can’t rule that out I Certainly but even if you even if you Don’t have that literally you have it Metaphorically in the sense that you Know the algorithms going wrong based on Inadequate uh priming now how would that Look like well it just looked like Somebody who didn’t know what they were Doing putting in information of itself The pieces themselves were you know fine But the combination of them it was Impossible to predict the outcome how The machine might actually combine them

Well and and you know you could actually I mean for example I mean this is a you Know example in theory but everything What we’re discovering now is the things That happen every day were firefights to Decades ago but it’s the idea that you Know Like if you if you prioritize the Machines in terms of morality or in Terms of utilitarian benefits Um uh you know like if you have a a a a Nuclear weapon of some kind and it’s It’s got a you know a particular you Input about human the value of the human Person the individual Dignity of the Human person but it’s also got a Counterfeiting uh program which is about Protecting the planet as all cause and And so it’s possible for the algorithms To combine so that they want the danger To the planet is its human quotient so What we need to do we need to get rid of This so if we will adapt our technology To to to do that uh that’s that’s kind Of like that sounds like I I don’t Consider that fair like I don’t consider That far-fetch because it happens to be true probably yeah You’re you’re going to be importing a Lot of abstract principles which will be Open to interpretation in different ways And it doesn’t require a little Intelligence in that sense in artificial Intelligence is a different to what we

Were doing because we think of Intelligence which is informed by Conscience and so on uh Another artificial intelligence would be Informed by programming but that Programming can be ambiguous And if it is ambiguous we can expect Very bad stuff to happen in between the Cracks and all we’ve seen is that like All to my knowledge all we’ve seen is Bad stuff like if you give like that Example with the news we’ve seen what That’s done like in terms of humanities Oh yeah so we have no we don’t have to My knowledge you know you might talk About cars or you know you know washing Machines or whatever you’re this um Internet of things that they talk about But to my knowledge we’ve no good Concrete example that AI as a human Product is anything but bad if you think Of the last three years Jerry and and Apply that what you said and if you’re Still spot on if you apply that logic And just look at that view look at those Three years in that viewfinder and you Say all this stuff that happens from the Lockdowns and so on and then vaccines And all that stuff and then you think Okay well what was good about that well The only things that that might have Been good from the point of view of Justifying any of things that happen Will be if the vaccine had been really

Massive success I’d saved everybody’s life and allowed Us all to go back to normal none of that Happened The vaccine has killed people injured People Beyond number And all the other stuff is still all There Cruelty and hardship and and horror show That was imposed on vast numbers of People all the effects of that are there Festering together with all the effects Of not being treated because they are a System what their health systems were Reoccupied with this you know viral Fiction and so on so here we are like Nothing you can’t look back on the last Two years and say that there is anything Positive about it other than that there Was a majority of people willing to Stand up and say no Yeah and that the world is an Aggressively worse place today than it Was five years ago like you could almost Say that uh the rate the rapidity of Change has has reduced generation down To five years like if you go back five Years it’s almost like a generation’s Worth of stuff has happened in it in in Terms I agree I agree I agree I I yeah and Like I I and and the color of it is is Really dark I mean what we have seen of The human species is something that

Maybe we were naive I I certainly feel I Have been naive but it’s a there’s a Darkness to the humans species in my Proximity that I didn’t suspect before I Mean I read all my Orwell and my Thoughts missing and I learned my History and so on and I’d known about Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia and all That and I thought I kind of understood That at some level that these are Certain aberrations that happen for Certain kind of historical reasons or You know some kind of clash of of forces In a certain moment and you know but That could never happen here well now I Know it can it’s a very real possibility Those things are now very much more much Closer to us uh imaginatively and Otherwise than they were uh two years Ago absolutely 100 like yeah and that And that I agree with you there and I Suppose that I suppose coming up to to To tail in the conversation is that like And I’ve written about this like there Are certain aspects of life that I Didn’t fully appreciate before and I Like one of the things I’m interested in Especially with the writing it’s why I’m Interested in you Thomas Sheridan and number Abby win Louise Grosvenor there’s a number of People trying to do and kind of off-grid Their own stuff Um is this idea of having I don’t know

What you do only build a parallel Society for yourself and remove yourself As much as you can from the existing one But uh well yeah I I I think that’s Right although I I would add a caveat Man I was actually watching the acting a Lachman this morning and and she said it And I thought yeah that’s right Are we sure that they’re going to allow Us to do that well this the thing is if They’re not going to allow us to do it What can you do because in the for if There’s a fall I suppose the analogy I was trying to Get to was the traveler situation As a tribe and because I wouldn’t have Fully appreciate I definitely didn’t Fully appreciate the The all aspects of traveler culture but One aspect that’s become really apparent To me is why they are so Um Committed to keeping the tribe Generation to generation and there’s not There’s some nice stuff there’s some not So nice stuff associated with that but The this idea of keeping that the Bloodlines going through the the eras And I I almost feel like we’re in a Situation where if we don’t start That’s if we don’t start doing something Like that soon I’m not saying that but I’m like I I’m getting to that kind of Thinking that is happening Jerry I mean

Slowly organically this is beginning to It there’s a receding as in you know the Things are being stolen and they begin To spell right around the place all Kinds of disconnected things which are Growing closer together and will become Connected in time I’ve no doubt about That but I think what I would say is That you know uh taking that idea that Would they allow us to do well they Probably won’t want us to do it but we Won’t have to go undergo serious trauma And pain in order to insist upon us and And that’s something I’m not sure that We’re ready for yet because this kind of Idea of the convenient Society you know That they are being pampered you know That kind of uh great new world kind of Tyranny is so strong now that I think it Actually you know you know I I find Actually that you know people even on Our side are not really cognizant of how Great the situation could become Yeah no I yeah I I agree with you Um but um and I’m actually speaking to Ashley and ashlyn’s doing one of these Hopefully on Friday as well so next week Um because I’m very interested to her Because I um Her thinking as well and yeah on a lot Of this stuff because I think for the Connection yeah with people you know Really fantastic Um

So John I suppose we’ll finish it up We’re nearly gone to two hours here Um I just want to mention to everybody That it’s John like John Waters uh dot go follow him if you’re not Following them already and subscribe Um I suppose Charlie is there anything You wanted to say or talk about before We finish up well uh I guess Um I I would say that you know it’s not Gonna Because I I don’t know I don’t go for That but I actually do feel quite Positive in some strange way I think They’re falling apart by Tyler Perry uh I I and I think we’re actually as I say Converging our energy is converging Whereas there is integrating and it’s Very important that we we keep the Pressure on you know the old Charities But keep them under pressure uh don’t Don’t get complacent don’t get uh you Know scared don’t get you know Intimidated just keep doing it we’ve Done an amazing job for for this Connected you know you know uh regular Title of of you know cancers uh to have Survived on during and managed to kind Of create that kind of resistance when The entire political establishment went The other way including the so-called Opposition that’s a tremendous Achievement so I think we should be very Proud of ourselves and happy not you

Know not not Coco hoop not complacent But feeling look we can’t actually do This I completely agree with it’s falling Apart and I’m I am I’m very positive About everything about on a personal Level the last year has been brilliant For me in just terms of the the people I’ve met and the networks I see that are Being built that like I I’m very Optimistic and into a degree I suppose That’s why I kind of I I do guess the Point though that if Everton Falls and All that stuff but I like I I feel the Energy is rising And I see this I say this because I see It in myself It’s the kind of a temptation to desire The old world back yeah that’s that’s Not going to happen Yeah yeah emotionally I want my whole Life back but I know that the world is The Future No Matter What happens it’s Going to be completely different yeah Yeah now I I I feel that very strongly So I’m not I’m not really I’m not look I’m not looking to um just set fire to The house or Anthem but I’m very Comfortable with the idea that what Comes next is going to be different That’s going to require different skills Within us to succeed in but I think and The The way I look at it is people will

We’re ahead of the game in the sense That we Um We we fought back against Um The wave of um pressure that was put on Us so we’re a half a step ahead of Everybody else is the way I look at it In terms of that might save us all but It it gives us a head start as the way I Look at us and like I I and I think I Think we are a safe journey I think that That’s that’s where we have to look at It we have saved ourselves our children Our our children’s children we have Saved them by what we’ve done by Standing up now we just have to keep Standing ourselves and everything will Be fine everything will be fine That’s a good note in done and thanks a Million John Um for for giving me two hours and I’ll Just uh shut off the broadcast here now I’m a second

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